IAM

[Liveware Problem]

I went out yesterday evening for a 'taster' ride with an observer from TVAM (Thames Vale Advanced Motorcyclists). We were out for about 90 mins, first a chat about the IAM roadsmart program, then followed him for a bit and then he followed me and then gave some feedback on my riding.

 

I wasn't sure what to expect but the chap was very friendly and not pompous about 'Advanced' riding, I think I'll probably join with the aim of improving my riding and getting out more on the bike in general (he did say we will always be encouraging you to ride). 

 

Has anyone else been through the IAM or ROSPA process? Or currently going through it? Any thoughts?

 

 

[bonio]

Nice one.

I did RoSPA years ago. Again, I got on well with my observer bloke, so it worked well. I hadn't been riding that long so my riding improved a lot - better obs, better planning, smoother riding and "progressiver". Being RoSPA, you do a retake every third year, which has been great for reminding me of the basics, and each time I get more out of it. 

The only downer is that I get a RoSPA magazine through the post four times a year which is full "but if we only did this we would be safer" articles and letters telling me why speed limits should be reduced.  

 

[peatear]

I want to do them. Once I get a bike. If I knew exactly when that would be i'd try getting booked. They seem to fill up very fast.

Bikesafe is what I really wanted to get on to, but have absolutely no availability near me. Or have stopped doing them completely.

 

[Steve_M]

I have been a member of either  IAM and RoSPA since 1992 , and have been an observer / tutor respectively. I’m pleased to hear you found it useful. The tutors are generally decent people who just want to help.

 

 

[Steve_M]

1 hour ago, bonio said:

 

The only downer is that I get a RoSPA magazine through the post four times a year which is full "but if we only did this we would be safer" articles and letters telling me why speed limits should be reduced.  

 

Never read them. I wish there was a box to decline receipt. And they can’t even be composted.

[Six30]

IAM..... a better rider than you..... not for me . 

[bonio]

2 hours ago, Six30 said:

IAM..... a better rider than you..... not for me . 

It's meant to be more like IAM a better rider than I used to be

[Pie man]

2 hours ago, Six30 said:

IAM..... a better rider than you..... not for me . 

I hope its moved on a bit since those days however, my observer wanted to straighten the curve and ride straight through the bends. We parted company when I said, where the fun in that, I like to get my knee down if I can. He didn't find it funny. 

[manxie49]

I did IAM a few years ago and found it really good.  My observer was a former police motorcyclist.  I’m hoping to do the bikemaster course next year …. Any training is good training,  goes some way to helping keep you on the ball.

[Bungleaio]

I've done it and it's not pompous  and we're better than you attitude. It's about making the best use of the road to make progress withing the limits of the law. 

 

I got a lot out of it and am planning on doing the car course. It cost me about £200 which for about 20 hours of one to one tuition is extremely good value to me. 

 

Another bonus of being in the iam is the discounts that they have set up with quite a few different places. I saved a good few thousand off my GS. 

[SometimesSansEngine]

I did IAM in 2019 but am not renewing my membership (either to IAM itself or my local group) this year as for me membership isn't worth it, and I don't enjoy group rides.

 

It's worth it but you need to apply your own perspective to the advice you're given. For example, if I'm following someone who is doing 40 no matter what, I don't see the point in overtaking in a 50 just before a 30 when I know they're then just going to be up my arse, all because on that bit "I could make progress".

 

Generally speaking I find the higher up the food chain (better trained) you go the better attitude and the better conversations I had with them.

[Steve_M]

46 minutes ago, SometimesSansEngine said:

I did IAM in 2019 but am not renewing my membership (either to IAM itself or my local group) this year as for me membership isn't worth it, and I don't enjoy group rides.

 

It's worth it but you need to apply your own perspective to the advice you're given. For example, if I'm following someone who is doing 40 no matter what, I don't see the point in overtaking in a 50 just before a 30 when I know they're then just going to be up my arse, all because on that bit "I could make progress".

 

Generally speaking I find the higher up the food chain (better trained) you go the better attitude and the better conversations I had with them.

With my “observer” hat on, I agree with your point about not overtaking in the situation you outline, for much the same reason. I have discussed this point with other observers on observer training days and I can only think of one who disagreed with that view.

 

 

[SometimesSansEngine]

37 minutes ago, Steve_M said:

With my “observer” hat on, I agree with your point about not overtaking in the situation you outline, for much the same reason. I have discussed this point with other observers on observer training days and I can only think of one who disagreed with that view.

 

 

 

I'll always be fair to my specific observer, we'd have a chat, and even if he wasn't 100% my view he'd say "fair enough" and was happy that at the very least I'd demonstrated I'd considered the situation and explained my thought process. He never pushed me to do anything I didn't want to do.

 

However, when I went on a group ride it was rife of stuff like that. 

[Steve_M]

41 minutes ago, SometimesSansEngine said:

 

I'll always be fair to my specific observer, we'd have a chat, and even if he wasn't 100% my view he'd say "fair enough" and was happy that at the very least I'd demonstrated I'd considered the situation and explained my thought process. He never pushed me to do anything I didn't want to do.

 

However, when I went on a group ride it was rife of stuff like that. 

My approach was that the rider should be a “thinking rider”. I would rarely prescribe any course of action - much better for the associate to assess.

 

I’ve been on group rides with a number of different groups now and can say that I’m not impressed with some. The Norfolk groups, both IAM and RoSPA, have the best approach that I’ve encountered. All rides have a designated observer / tutor organising. Meeting times, location and route published in advance, groups of no more than four, with debrief stops at suitable safe locations. The debrief is a short assessment of how the ride is going and any feedback is welcomed by all. It finished as a designated cafe for refreshments. 

[husoi]

Mixed feelings on this one.

Had people saying that is a waste of time.

Others saying that is a good thing.

The motivation would be a more for a cheaper insurance rather than improving my riding.

I am fully aware of my weak points and where I have to work on my skills to be better.

Having someone telling me how bad I am at speeding when I have little interest in being a racer is pointless. I don't need anybody to say that I need to stick to speed limit.

 

I always defended that experience is your best buddy and knowing where your limits are and never trying to go beyond them is the key for a safe ride.

Being a natural learner (on any subject) allows me to research and adapt what I have learnt to my personal circumstances.

I am to be convinced that any of these supposedly "enhancements" are worth the effort and money.

 

As always, this is just my personal views and have nothing against those who think it is a good thing  

[Liveware Problem]

21 hours ago, bonio said:

Nice one.

I did RoSPA years ago. Again, I got on well with my observer bloke, so it worked well. I hadn't been riding that long so my riding improved a lot - better obs, better planning, smoother riding and "progressiver". Being RoSPA, you do a retake every third year, which has been great for reminding me of the basics, and each time I get more out of it. 

The only downer is that I get a RoSPA magazine through the post four times a year which is full "but if we only did this we would be safer" articles and letters telling me why speed limits should be reduced.  

 

 

The retake idea seems sensible, do you find your riding has drifted away from the RoSPA 'style' as it were in the 3 years?

 

I'm curious as to how it differs from IAM too, I know IAM is based on the Police roadcraft handbook.

[SometimesSansEngine]

1 hour ago, husoi said:

The motivation would be a more for a cheaper insurance rather than improving my riding.

 

I'd suggest that if that's what you're hoping as an outcome then don't bother. The difference in my premiums was measured in several pounds. That's before you net off any membership fees. Might be worth running a few dummy quotes.

[SometimesSansEngine]

2 hours ago, Steve_M said:

I’ve been on group rides with a number of different groups now and can say that I’m not impressed with some. The Norfolk groups, both IAM and RoSPA, have the best approach that I’ve encountered. All rides have a designated observer / tutor organising. Meeting times, location and route published in advance, groups of no more than four, with debrief stops at suitable safe locations. The debrief is a short assessment of how the ride is going and any feedback is welcomed by all. It finished as a designated cafe for refreshments. 

 

The ride I went on was for people who had passed the assessment. I got the impression that as they all had a piece of paper they felt they were god's gift to riding. YMMV. The organisation for the route with a drop off system and TEC I couldn't fault, I just didn't enjoy the group experience nor the self-assessment of those I was with.

[TimR]

Good club to join.

 Get down to St Crispins for a Wow moment on their monthly  Sunday meets as can get upto 200 members easily .

 

The thing you need to understand is what you are wanting to take away from it .

Will it make you faster ....Doubtful 

Will it make you the best rider in the world ...Doubtful

 

As mentioned it is all down to you being a Thinking Rider and it promotes basically risk assessing everything you see and do .

Yes we all do it anyway but Advanced Riding put's 'guidelines' into this mental assessment to determine our actions .

 You still can ride like a hooligan but your thought process may be making you a smoother and safer hooligan 

Or you can ride within the limits and legality and again be smooth and safer ..

 As for which is best ...

IAM has better coverage but no immediate requirement to retest so skills can get a bit stale unless you want to keep on top of them and get reassessed. Qualification is recognised by insurers

Rospa found their club side is very 'clicky' but you can become a member and take your test without joining a club if you feel confident in your skills but positive is the mandatory 3 year retest .

 Most insurers will only recognise a Gold Pass as a advanced riding discount .

 

 TVAM hold a lot of additional courses which are well worth undertaking .

 As well as a huge bunch of rideouts and social events .

 

[TimR]

18 minutes ago, SometimesSansEngine said:

 

I'd suggest that if that's what you're hoping as an outcome then don't bother. The difference in my premiums was measured in several pounds. That's before you net off any membership fees. Might be worth running a few dummy quotes.

You will probably get the same discount for doing bikesafe and as if that is the only reason then not worth the outlay .

[TimR]

Both Rospa and IAM are based from Roadcraft 

 

But Rospa and Police only use Roadcraft as a Source material .

 

IAM use their own created material which has been taken from Roadcraft .

 

The basis is the same but small differences .

 

 

[SometimesSansEngine]

Another aspect on IAM groups: the one I was a member of recognised that skills may get rusty and IAM don't retest as standard. So they offer an annual assessment with a national observer. You may find the same in a local group, I don't know how common this is.

 

Otherwise within IAM the only route is Masters or become an observer yourself (unless @Steve_M knows any different)

 

I'm also still dead against the common lack of radios for training. Feedback should be immediate. The old fashioned "no radios means you learn to frequently check your mirrors" view is rubbish, in my opinion.

 

Groups are allowed to use radios (although I believe observers need to do an additional course to do so) but it seems most groups are overtly traditional here in insisting you check your mirrors for directions, then bringing things up in a debrief an hour or two later.

[SometimesSansEngine]

Just now, TimR said:

Both Rospa and IAM are based from Roadcraft 

 

And on that - you can buy and read roadcraft yourself, you can watch some really good YouTube content on riding.

 

But I do think you'll only see real improvement with someone watching you ride and feeding back. You don't know what you don't know, you can't see what you spot.

 

Many people go right over to the left hand side for a right hander, because it's a "faster line" and/or "gives a better view" and it's what they read in Roadcraft. But then someone behind you points out that you weren't thinking about the car in the nearside junction, and had completely buggered up options to get yourself out of a sticky situation if they decided to start to pull out. That's the element of the thinking rider that's being mentioned here. 

 

I await for some people to respond they do that and don't need someone to tell them to do it but again - it's amazing what you may miss yourself. But hey, if you self-assess that you're already a complete rider then you're never going to take kindly to someone giving you some feedback anyway so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

It doesn't have to be an advanced course. There's freelance trainers doing their own flavour of this, there's the DVSA's enhanced rider scheme, there's Bike Safe etc.

[TimR]

15 minutes ago, SometimesSansEngine said:

Another aspect on IAM groups: the one I was a member of recognised that skills may get rusty and IAM don't retest as standard. So they offer an annual assessment with a national observer. You may find the same in a local group, I don't know how common this is.

 

Otherwise within IAM the only route is Masters or become an observer yourself (unless @Steve_M knows any different)

 

I'm also still dead against the common lack of radios for training. Feedback should be immediate. The old fashioned "no radios means you learn to frequently check your mirrors" view is rubbish, in my opinion.

 

Groups are allowed to use radios (although I believe observers need to do an additional course to do so) but it seems most groups are overtly traditional here in insisting you check your mirrors for directions, then bringing things up in a debrief an hour or two later.

Iam now do a fellowship where you retest every 3 .

But its a personal choice , you pay a bit less than normal nembership but to retain Advanced you have to pass 

( whilst standard membership as long as you pay your dues your an Advanced Rider for life )

 

I have to redo Masters every 5 

[manxie49]

One of the best courses I did was run locally by an instructor, half day on slow manoeuvring.  Sounds boring I know,  but some of the skills were challenging and really went some way to improving slow riding and manoeuvring confidence.  I think a group called the Motorcycle academy runs the same sort of course.  I was lucky when I did my IAM training,  my observer used radios, so feedback was instant, I do know a lot don't, real shame.