When are we going to start teaching trail braking?

[Pbassred]

I had a conversation with a CBT instructor today.  An ex-police rider and someone high up in the IAM I think.  So I got around to breaking into corners.  He affirmed rear breaking into corners because "it stabilizes the bike", but never pressing the front brake because "it makes the bike sit up".  He was also referencing "Motorcycle Roadcraft".  I am surprised by this persistent thinking.  Here is what M.R. actually says on pg 136:

" Weight transfer during a turn will increase the self aligning effect and straighten the steering. This will happen if you apply the front brake. If you don't anticipate and counter the effect of weight transfer the bike will lift and straighten and sit up out of a turn.  You can correct weight transfer by further counter steering."

So its not bad if we plan for it.

and:-

"Using the back brake - Whilst cornering causes over-steering and normally tightens the turn."

That doesn't sound nice.

 

Motorbike racers always trail brake the front into bends.  It pushes the front wheel down which increases grip on the steering and braking wheel. It also keeps the pads in contact with encourages more progressing braking control. Whats not to like about that?

 

So why does this "drag the rear brake" idea persist even with the police?   When are we going to start teaching trail braking?

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Pbassred
repetition

[husoi]

This makes me think that if when you get to a curve you have to do all of that, likely is that you were too fast for the curve...

 

I always prefer to do the opposite. Thinking that I could have gone a wee bit faster.

If I need to go that fast I should have left the house earlier...

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

Personally I think too much guff is said about trail braking. It's really very simple, brake early, brake progressively, and carry some braking into the bend until you can transfer onto the throttle. 

 

It's all about thinking ahead and keeping things smooth.

 

 

 

 

[KiwiBob]

 

[fullscreenaging]

9 hours ago, husoi said:

I always prefer to do the opposite. Thinking that I could have gone a wee bit faster.

 

Exactly. 
 

If I come out of a curve/bend and think “I could have done that faster”, then I know I’m riding well within my skills and I’m happy. 
 

The curves is where it’s at for me. Anyone can go fast in a straight line and it takes no skill.

 

[onesea]

Not teaching tail breaking, why?  Because it's not necessary for most uk road riding.

 

Your limiting factor in most corners is how far you can see into the bend.  Not if you apply rear brake or lean your body in the right direction on the way into the bend.

 

On occasion these techniques might help in a dodgy situation.  However if you need them you where probably going to fast to start with.

 

Your efforts might be better learning better observation skills.  Most bikers get hurt by what they did not expect,  feeling confident going into the bend at that speed probably being the cause of the problem. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by onesea

[manxie49]

I was taught how to trail brake, but the only time I've ever used it, was when I've over cooked things into a bend.  Pragmatically I would say, at the time, that wasn't good riding on my part.  Personally I would sooner use good forward observation,  be travelling at the right speed and in the correct gear for the prevailing weather and road conditions,  planning my entry into and exit out of a bend without having to do any of that.  There is a place for trail braking definitely,  more so on the race track, but having an understanding of it can go some way to getting you out of trouble should things go a bit awry,  trail braking carries with it it's own inherent risks though,  as was discussed on an advanced course I did some time ago.  I think it's good to have in the "survival armoury" of skills, but I'd sooner ride within my limits and therefore not have to use it.

[husoi]

Actually. I don't need to know it.

Honda dual braking system does it for me  

[geofferz]

I ride on the roads like I do on the track, bit slower of course, and I don't trail brake on the track soooo... 

[billy sugger]

2 hours ago, husoi said:

Actually. I don't need to know it.

Honda dual braking system does it for me  

Ditto 

[Pbassred]

Quote

 I think it's good to have in the "survival armoury" of skills, but I'd sooner ride within my limits and therefore not have to use it.

I completely agree, and I'm not suggesting that we ride at the limit. I'm not suggesting that we trail brake into blind apexes, but even with the best vision we can't see every patch of diesel, gravel, pothole, dead badger until we are right on top of it.  Shouldn't we be practiced and ready to use it? Even to the point of; hand on leaver with the pads just engaged?

Surly that has to be better that snatching at the brake at the last minute.  Definetly better than a Police trained rider with stoic belief that: dragging the rear "stabilises the bike in a fast corner". 

[fastbob]

I'm going to say what I always say in these " How to go round corners " posts . Just ride the bike around the corner without any intellectual process at all . The best style is no style . 

[DuRavary]

For a long time I have regularly watched French TV programmes. For a while I had to concentrate hard to every word and often used subtitles to help me to translate what I was hearing into English. I couldn’t multi-task, it was TV or checking my emails. One day I realised that life had become more straightforward and I worked out that I was understanding the spoken French with no need to translate. Life was so much easier. I am sure that riding a bike is a bit like that. To start with most of us have to concentrate and justify every action and reaction. With experience you just get on the bike and ride. Last weekend I had a great ride out of the mountains with the road surface changing on every bend, everything from snow to pristine sunny tarmac. I probably didn’t go through two corners in exactly the same way and to be honest I can’t remember thinking about any of the details, it just comes down to muscle memory and experience. I know that I have a style that involves as little braking as possible (I roll off the throttle quite early on unfamiliar roads) and that most of my braking uses the the front brake only. I think that almost a decade on a Pan European with linked braking made the food pedal obsolete. I know that although I ride reasonably quickly there will be a lot of riders that will be a lot lot faster. I have another outlook, on two wheels on public roads I never take unnecessary risks. My choice. I also drive a ‘hot hatch’. When driving that I’m much more likely to get close to the vehicle’s limits because unlike a sliding bike the FWD car is reasonably tame and controllable when it loses traction and if I should hit a hedge or run into a field I have a pretty good level of protection.

My advice to any newcomer to two wheels is don’t run before you can walk. Read the theory and learn the jargon but nothing will beat getting your bum on the seat and miles under the wheels to work out out what works for you and your bike. I never countersteered until I got my ST1300 but soon discovered that that was by far the best technique for me to use on it when travelling quickly on twisty roads. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by DuRavary

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

29 minutes ago, DuRavary said:

I never countersteered until I got my ST1300 but soon discovered that that was by far the best technique for me to use on it when travelling quickly on twisty roads. 

Was that the first two wheeled vehicle you rode then? Because if you don't counter steer, even if uncounsciously, then you can't turn a two wheeled vehicle. To initiate a turn on a bike physics demands that the front wheel is moved in the opposite direction to the desired change of direction.

 

There's a YouTube clip of someone proving this by installing a device to lock the steering in one direction. When told to turn left the device locked the handlebars to prevent them turning right. It was shown to be impossible to then turn left. And vice versa of course.

 

Anyone who as a kid rode around on two wheels learned to counter steer intuitively. They just didn't realise they were doing it.

 

 

[Pbassred]

I played bass for 2 decades before I decided to take a lesson.  It taught me to reposition my plucking hand and unlocked many things that I couldn't play cleanly before.  You think you know something because you have been doing it for years and then you define something that you took for granted and you realise that you didn't.

[DuRavary]

3 hours ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said:

Was that the first two wheeled vehicle you rode then? Because if you don't counter steer, even if uncounsciously, then you can't turn a two wheeled vehicle. To initiate a turn on a bike physics demands that the front wheel is moved in the opposite direction to the desired change of direction.

 

There's a YouTube clip of someone proving this by installing a device to lock the steering in one direction. When told to turn left the device locked the handlebars to prevent them turning right. It was shown to be impossible to then turn left. And vice versa of course.

 

Anyone who as a kid rode around on two wheels learned to counter steer intuitively. They just didn't realise they were doing it.

 

 

Perhaps I should have said consciously countersteered then. I’m sorry you don’t appreciate my input, I was just pointing out that it’s a technique that made a huge difference on that particular bike. Mind you if you had read the whole post properly you would have understood the context b

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

Just now, DuRavary said:

Perhaps I should have said consciously countersteered then. I’m sorry you don’t appreciate my input, I was just pointing out that it’s a technique that made a huge difference on that particular bike. Mind you if you had read the whole post properly you would have understood the context b

Nope, just clarifying. If you'd not ridden anything on two wheels then you wouldn't have countersteered. The thing is people make a song and dance about countersteering like it's a new trick. It isn't, it's basic physics that most kids learn by instinct as soon as their stabilisers are removed.

 

Interestingly the idea of fitting stabiliser to a kid's bike actually prevents them from learning to ride on two wheels and delays their intuition. A bike with stabilisers steers like a car, which is a totally different experience than countersteering. 

 

So I was merely saying that anyone who has ridden anything on two wheels has been countersteering from day one. It's not a new trick just for motorcyclists. Nor does it need to be done consciously to be effective. In fact it's probably better if it's a learnt instinct.

[DuRavary]

10 minutes ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said:

Nope, just clarifying. If you'd not ridden anything on two wheels then you wouldn't have countersteered. The thing is people make a song and dance about countersteering like it's a new trick. It isn't, it's basic physics that most kids learn by instinct as soon as their stabilisers are removed.

 

Interestingly the idea of fitting stabiliser to a kid's bike actually prevents them from learning to ride on two wheels and delays their intuition. A bike with stabilisers steers like a car, which is a totally different experience than countersteering. 

 

So I was merely saying that anyone who has ridden anything on two wheels has been countersteering from day one. It's not a new trick just for motorcyclists. Nor does it need to be done consciously to be effective. In fact it's probably better if it's a learnt instinct.

One of the main points in my post was that we learn to do things instinctively and don’t spend out whole time thinking in detail about what we are going to do The Pan European needed a hefty input, quite different from any other bike I’ve ever ridden. Luckily for most people they can use everyday objects without understanding the science however interesting it is. 

[Breezin]

Over decades of riding, I never heard of countersteering until I found myself a born-again biker with Internet and realised the scale of the motorcycling safety skills industry.

Then I glanced down at my bars while taking a bend and thought, "Oh yeah. They are pointing the other way. ' Doh!

An awful lot nowadays is seriously overthought. (My theory is that the reason trail braking is associated for some with rear braking is just confusion over the language.)

I just don't push it into corners and try to anticipate. If I'm riding actively I'll tend to cover the front lever. Isn't that just common sense that you don't need a safety instructor or Youtube guru to tell you?

[Chrissb6]

If I've got to brake deep into a corner basically l know l know that I've screwed up. l barely used my back brake, l let the engine take care of the back wheel 

[Fish]

When I completed the BikeSafe course earlier in the year on my 125, one of the main comments from the wonderful officer was about trail braking in corners and that I should stop doing that.

 

If it makes me feel comfortable then I'm happy to carry on with it to be honest.

[Stu]

I have gotten really lazy with the rear brake since I got the BMW! and I don't know why  

 

I'm not sure if its the linked brakes are the fact that the front end doesn't dive when you brake! 

 

I now find I am making myself use the rear brake to re educate myself 

 

A fair few years ago I used to go out and just practice all the principles of riding like counter steering, Looking where you want to go, braking in bends , trail braking and avoiding obstacles oh and wheelies  

 

All in the aim to make it all second nature when riding  

[fastbob]

Rear brake ? If you're using the rear brake it's time to sort your front ones out . I haven't used a rear brake for decades and yes , that does include the Harley . Think about it , on my GSXR there were two six pot calipers on the front and a silly little two pot caliper on the back for decoration . 

[Throttled]

I do 99% of braking before the corner, but then entering the corner, I use the rear brake and rear trail braking a lot. I ride country roads that are twisty and often dirty, a lot. I encounter lots of walkers and cyclists on those roads and want, if I meet them, or mud, on a corner to be slowing already and be able to go round them. Anyone behind me probably thinks I am using the breaks a lot, but most of the time I am barely squeezing the lever, it is just engaged, so if I have to brake hard, am I not snatching at them. Hanging on to that little bit of breaking into the corner makes for more controlled braking if it has to continue through the bend.

 

Braking and slow into corners has saved me a few times from hitting something just round a bend, or having to bail onto the wrong side of road without having had a chance to check for oncoming vehicles.

[skyrider]

10 minutes ago, Throttled said:

I do 99% of braking before the corner, but then entering the corner, I use the rear brake and rear trail braking a lot. I ride country roads that are twisty and often dirty, a lot. I encounter lots of walkers and cyclists on those roads and want, if I meet them, or mud, on a corner to be slowing already and be able to go round them. Anyone behind me probably thinks I am using the breaks a lot, but most of the time I am barely squeezing the lever, it is just engaged, so if I have to brake hard, am I not snatching at them. Hanging on to that little bit of breaking into the corner makes for more controlled braking if it has to continue through the bend.

 

Braking and slow into corners has saved me a few times from hitting something just round a bend, or having to bail onto the wrong side of road without having had a chance to check for oncoming vehicles.

braking 75% front and 25% rear in dry conditions and 50 50  in wet conditions  and have your braking finished with before you enter the corner i was always told 

Edited December 18, 2021 by skyrider