Cbt! Is it enough?

[Stu]

Went for a drive to the coast today for chippy dinner and on the way we came across a scooter with a car stopped helping them. 

 

So being a biker and knowing a bit about bikes I turned around to see if there was anything I could do to help. 

 

It turned out it was a young girl about 17 or 18 who had somehow crashed on an almost straight bit of road. 

 

She had passed her cbt and picked a brand new bike up yesterday and gone out and ditched it. 

 

The worrying thing is she had cuts on her head even though she had a helmet on! 

 

But the point is do you really think a days training is enough for these young people to be let out on a bike that could easily kill them and others? 

 

Personally I think it should be a full test like a car with no exceptions 

[Bender]

Nope not enough.

[Mr Fro]

I don't think CBT is enough by any stretch however, I do remember the deep joy at being able to ride after a day of passing about on bikes.

 

I see loads of yoofs riding scooters round and about my uni and almost all of them put their foot down when going round corners GTA style.

[S-Westerly]

In my youth you could buy up to 250 cc without any training at all, just a provisional license. I did and rode my Honda from Ruislip to near Southport.  How I didn't kill myself I'll never know.  Some kind of more formal training could be advantageous as I believe some CBT providers are not too fussy as to how good you need to be to be released into the wild.

[S-Westerly]

Just now, Mr Fro said:

 

 

I see loads of yoofs riding scooters round and about my uni and almost all of them put their foot down when going round corners GTA style.

I've seen a few doing that too, on just about any bend. 

[Mr Fro]

Just now, S-Westerly said:

I've seen a few doing that too, on just about any bend. 

f*kin weird isn't it. 

 

I caught a peg on a cat's eye while riding a Golding and it bent the thing back. Imagine twatting your foot on one!

[Stu]

I just don't understand how you can do 1 days training and be let loose but not in a car! 

[Spongefinger]

Definitely not enough. After my CBT I didn't feel anywhere near ready to ride on the road. I find it amazing that you have to take on average 40 hours of lessons and pass a reasonably tough 30 minute test to drive the safest vehicle on the road yet you can go from never even have ridden a pushbike to being on the road on a bike in a T-Shirt and flip flops after a few hours very basic training. Most road knowledge is learnt from experience and you can't get that in half a day. 

[Spongefinger]

28 minutes ago, S-Westerly said:

In my youth you could buy up to 250 cc without any training at all, just a provisional license. I did and rode my Honda from Ruislip to near Southport.  How I didn't kill myself I'll never know.  Some kind of more formal training could be advantageous as I believe some CBT providers are not too fussy as to how good you need to be to be released into the wild.

I can attest to that. I didn't reach the standard on my CBT I kept stalling everytime I had to stop, kept running wide turning out of junctions and I never managed to do a u turn. They told me to come back in a couple of days to try again. I rang them and booked. When I turned up they had no idea I was coming, who I was or why I hadn't passed. They asked me and I said clutch control. A guy took me out on the bike for a twenty minute ride I stalled once and he said you're fine and wrote out my certificate. First time I did a u turn was mod 1 training ( with a different school)

[Bender]

It's a joke, as is passing a cbt then being able to not pass a proper test ever if you just stick with cbt.

 

My baptism of fire was a crappy scooter in Greece 2up not a cbt in sight, it was many many yrs ago.

[Tiggie]

Should be better/longer training up to a 125 but remove the 2 year renewal. 

[Trooper74]

So ... your all in favour of this ;

 

“ According to the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA), the average learner driver needs 47 lessons and 22 hours of private practice before they pass their test. "

 

Thats cars ... if you believe there's a delta between them please let us all know ...

[SometimesSansEngine]

I did my CBT in my 30s. It left me utterly petrified that that's all young kids who may have never really used the roads before get in terms of training.

 

In fact, when my 16 year old niece expressed an interest in taking her CBT I got all protective and said if she did I'd want to go on a few rides with her first. She won't of course, deep down I know that, but I had to offer.

[onesea]

My answer is it depends...

If they are the kids that rode push bikes to school and played in the road yes.

 

If however they are the kids that sat in the back of the car eyes down playing on there phone no.

 

If they are learning to ride as a passion and want to learn then probably yes.

 

If they just want a mode of transport to get to school/ college then probably not.

 

Enough experienced riders have accidents to say no amount of training is enough.

 

The correct answer is hard to say.

Edited April 20, 2021 by onesea

[Stu]

18 minutes ago, onesea said:

My answer is it depends...

If they are the kids that rode push bikes to school and played in the road yes.

 

If however they are the kids that sat in the back of the car eyes down playing on there phone no.

 

If they are learning to ride as a passion and want to learn then probably yes.

 

If they just want a mode of transport to get to school/ college then probably not.

 

Enough experienced riders have accidents to say no amount of training is enough.

 

The correct answer is hard to say.

 

Totally get where you are coming from with this! 

 

Who has the most experience? Someone who passed their test 20 years ago who has only ridden 100 miles or someone who passed 6 months ago who has cover 5k! 

 

When it comes to insurance worryingly years licence held is the main factor  

 

I grew up with bikes so knew how to ride one and also had a lot of road sense as we didn't have phones as kids and the only thing we could do was watch the road! 

 

I never did CBT then rode on L plates! I did my DAS which was only 2.5 days and passed my test. Although I passed I still think there was not enough training provided maybe that's now why we have mod 1 and 2 but why has the CBT not being made harder/more informative! 

[onesea]

11 minutes ago, Stu said:

 

Totally get where you are coming from with this! 

I have same feelings with sailing world where there is no legal requirements for qualifications.

 

Some people have to be spoon fed and taught others recognise the risk (either by mistakes or by looking) and learn.  

 

Some stay local and don’t push there abilities, others look to learn or get away with it for years until.
 

Sailing like biking is not difficult if you take your time think don’t over step your abilities, it is generally more forgiving as well. 
 

If someone starts justifying there ability’s afloat by qualifications i generally would choose not to sail with them.

 

[dynax]

As it stands the CBT is not fit for purpose, there are too many schools/ instructors that don't adhere to the schedule as it is supposed to be.

I have mentioned this to others years ago, I personally think there should be training villages where learners can be trained without going anywhere near a public road until they are competent/ confident enough.

This would apply to cars and bikes.

[Spongefinger]

2 hours ago, dynax said:

As it stands the CBT is not fit for purpose, there are too many schools/ instructors that don't adhere to the schedule as it is supposed to be.

I have mentioned this to others years ago, I personally think there should be training villages where learners can be trained without going anywhere near a public road until they are competent/ confident enough.

This would apply to cars and bikes.

My instructor was telling be about a Yamaha approved CBT centre that was shut down because when they went to inspect it they only had a tiny yard and all they did was get student to ride in a circle round a single cone a few times then signed them off.

[Six30]

If you go to do cbt having never been near a bike before then no its not enough .

[onesea]

Possible thread derailment coming...

 

What should be in the CBT?
 

My thoughts:

ALL ROAD USERS - except pedestrians.

Including horse riders and electric buggy’s/ scooters.

 

Enhanced Hazard/ danger awareness theory,

Enhanced Highwaycode knowledge theory,

 

Pass/ fail can be done before and have option of on day however still sitting exam and need to pass before going on road.

 

Actual bike test.

At the end there should be a videos test, U turn, emergency stop, basically mod 1&2 but feet down allowed and a short road ride. Some, Competence required not a high standard.

Why videos?  Then dodgy instructors would have to be more careful.

 

 

 

[SometimesSansEngine]

3 minutes ago, onesea said:

Possible thread derailment coming...

 

What should be in the CBT?
 

My thoughts:

ALL ROAD USERS - except pedestrians.

Including horse riders and electric buggy’s/ scooters.

 

Enhanced Hazard/ danger awareness theory,

Enhanced Highwaycode knowledge theory,

 

Pass/ fail can be done before and have option of on day however still sitting exam and need to pass before going on road.

 

Actual bike test.

At the end there should be a videos test, U turn, emergency stop, basically mod 1&2 but feet down allowed and a short road ride. Some, Competence required not a high standard.

Why videos?  Then dodgy instructors would have to be more careful.

 

 

 

 

I'd like to see you need to do your theory test before doing your CBT.

 

If you do your CBT on an automatic, you're only entitled to ride an automatic.

 

Make the CBT at least two days so more road riding can be incorporated.

 

Agree with the mod 1 style exercises, and as I think the mod 1 is too black and white as is (I'd allow people to have a second go at some of the exercises if their general performance is sound) agreed on the principle that it doesn't have to be perfect first time.

 

Separately I'd want to give those who take their A1 licence more incentive to do so. At the moment if you're 17 and take your CBT, there is pretty much zero motivation to do your A1, which means you miss out on additional training at such a critical age. Why do it just so you can ride the same bike, when in two years if you want to ride a bigger bike you have to do it all again (CBT included anyway) at additional cost?

 

I'd also be interested in a review amongst instructors to see if as an industry they feel the assessment of whether someone gets a certificate should be independent. I know plenty of them have some horror stories. I've said before that I think motorcycle licencing is a huge turn off for new riders (see here), it's so convoluted and confusing... but at CBT level I do wonder if there should be more oversight

[daveinlim]

13 hours ago, S-Westerly said:

I've seen a few doing that too, on just about any bend. 

I see this on a daily basis in London. All it takes is one little hazard and that foot is coming clean off. 

 

To my mind it is mostly food delivery drivers that seem to do this. I really think if you are a professional driver you should have a full licence regardless of what vehicle you use. 

[SometimesSansEngine]

Just some data...

 

"Road collision data produced by MAST shows that there were 7663 collisions recorded involving young people (aged 16-24) where the police attended in 2012. 4175 of these collisions involved 16-19 year olds showing that this group of teenagers is 50% more likely to have a collision than the 20-24 year olds.... 88% of collisions involved males.... While the incidence of road collisions by gender reflects the gender profile of all CBT learners, the MAST data reveals that when males have collisions, they are more likely to be severe, resulting in death or serious injury, than when females have collisions (24% compared to 13%)"

 

"Learners and trainers disagree about learners’ level of understanding of riding mopeds and motorcycles before CBT, with over half of learners claiming they had a high or fair level of understanding but less than a quarter of trainers thinking their learners had this level of understanding. In the learners’ survey, 16-18 year olds claimed almost the same level of understanding as older learners. Women are less likely to claim they had a high level of understanding. 43% of learners had no riding experience before taking their most recent CBT. Over four in ten claimed to have read the Highway Code to prepare for CBT. Over four in ten talked to friends or relatives who had taken CBT. More 16-18 year olds took these two actions than learners in general."

 

"15% are not receiving the legal minimum 2 hours on the road"

 

I haven't read the whole thing but will when I get a chance. There is some info on what instructors would like to change, eg they're split on making an annual refresher mandatory but also feel it would be good to just take returners out on a road ride to check competence.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/380799/cbt-learners-trainers-report.pdf

 

[SometimesSansEngine]

Some of these graphs are sobering viewing

 

 

 

 

Young male riders make up 2% of the total distance travelled, but 16% of KSI stats, females similar numbers:

 

 

Full document here:

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447673/motorcyclist-casualties-2013-data.pdf

[Troy]

I have not read through all the replies to this thread yet, but following on from the starting post....

 

 

I think another point to consider is if the training they received on there CBT was good enough? For example: some riding schools in my area are notorious for hosting “crash courses” and promise a pass at the end of 7 days. I think a day to earn a CBT certificate or license is possible.... but maybe it’s the quality of education being given and not the duration it takes to learn.

 

Having said this, I crashed my first car the day after I passed my driving test and it took me about 7-8 months to pass. Not once have I felt it my instructor’s fault, I was simply over-confident at the time.  

Edited April 20, 2021 by Troy